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Blueboy
Starting Member
6 Posts |
 Posted - 21/06/2002 : 18:49:57
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Well we've heard how this area of fishing in the U.K. and especially Scotland has been badly reduced.
Is it just me who finds it odd the price of such fishing has'nt dropped? seems the same as it ever was, just outrageously over priced now instead of over priced.
BB
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Andy.C.Wren
Member
272 Posts |
Posted - 23/06/2002 : 03:00:19
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Just to say ,the top end of the fishing is still very expensive but huge parts of scotland can be fished for the same daily price as a boat fishing day on the big ressers or the dever springs type fisheries .
less chance of a catch but a much nicer environment .
A.C.W |
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Sandison
Member
117 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2002 : 16:48:16
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Andy is right. Huge parts of Scotland can be fished for very little money. And for very few, if any, salmon or sea-trout. My information is that Scottish fishery owners propose even bigger 'glass doors' on Carter Bar, just to make sure that they really, really see English piscators, et al, coming.If you want to waste your money, book a week on a Scottish salmon/sea-trout stream/loch. Scotland's fishery owners have presided over, and aided and abbeted, the destruction of Caledonia's wild salmonids. They have done nothing whatsoever to properly address the problems: industrial fishing for sandeels; aquaculture; indiscriminatory coastal netting; habitat degredation. If this be error and upon me proved, then no man/woman ever fished or loved our dear affliction.
Bruce Sandison |
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Rob B
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2002 : 10:04:04
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I am predominatly a coarse angler, but I find this whole issue of salmon and sea trout stocks fasinating.
This is how i see it...anglers are asked to pay large sums of money for the privalige of catching "wild" fish. In reality, you are paying for the right to fish, not the fish themselves. The fish belong to no one. I would even argue about fish stocked from hatcheries, as the original eggs and milt come from wild fish. (Why cant I legally fish for sea trout from the shore??) Admitedly, on certain beats you get a fishing hut, a ghillie, nicely kept banks etc, but those salmon are nobodies...they are wild.
We then get to the issue of lack of Salmon etc. Well..an analagy I use is this. Would a farmer have Ewes in his fields which are ready to lamb, and then kill them for market before they have had chance to produce the lambs? No, of course not, doing this would soon see his fields empty forever!!! Bingo...thats whats happening in the Scottish rivers. Kill a spawn laden salmon and you are killing the future stocks. Simple huh? I have suggested that every 3rd year, a strict catch and release policy is enforced to allow a year free for the salmon to spawn. I have been met with hostility from my local angling club. Why??..well the arguemnt is nearly always "I have paid my money so I want my fish!"
I cant see the fishery owners doing a damn thing to sort out this problem, and while people still pay silly money to fish, then this problem will get worse and worse until there are no fish left.
(Please note, I know there are exceptions to this and to those owners who are trying to preserve Salmon stocks, I wish you all the luck in the world, you need it.)
Now, I will go and hide under my desk.
She may have teeth, but please respect her. |
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Sandison
Member
117 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2002 : 15:10:32
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Rob
I agree entirely with your carefully judged and courteous argument. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the river owner to ensure that he is offering paying guests value for money, or, at the very least, a reasonable opportunity of sport. The sad truth of the matter is that the vast majority of river owners are more concerned with preserving their income, rather than with preserving the wild fish in their rivers and lochs; otherwise, why have they completely failed to do anything whatsoever to protect their 'rights' in the face of massive attack - on the west coast, from fake fish farms, and on the east coast from the impact of industrial fishing for sandeels? These miserable people will go down in the history of Scottish salmon fishing as being the greedy 'idiots' who fiddled whilst the Rome of our wild salmonid populations burned. If you would like to make a difference, please come onboard our protest (see sea-trout forum). As you rightly say, waiting for the Association of Scottish Salmon District Fishery Boards (or whatever it is they call themselves these days )or the Salmon & Trout Association, or the Scottish Anglers' National Association to address these issues has about as much chance of saving Scotland's wild fish as I have of playing Beethoven's 5th piano concerto in the Albert Hall. I appreciated your perceptive posting. Thanks - and save a space for me under that desk for me, please?
Bruce Sandison |
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Rob B
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2002 : 04:37:26
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Well Bruce, I am chuffed that someone such as yourself, who I have admired for many years, has listened to my rantings and have agreed with them. Thank you. I will do anythig to help, but from bitter experinece, I know it will be a long hard slog.
She may have teeth, but please respect her. |
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ali gow
Junior Member
64 Posts |
Posted - 15/09/2002 : 06:16:43
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There are still many Lochs that contain salmon ,seatrout and brownies that can be fished for £20 per BOAT ie 2 anglers / per day in NW Scotland and represent exceptional value.
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Sandison
Member
117 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2002 : 13:04:18
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Hi, Ali!
Thanks for your posting. Could you be so kind as to let me have a note of the names of, say, half a dozen of the lochs you mention in the West Highlands of Scotland that still have excellent sea-trout and salmon fishing?
Bruce Sandison |
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ali gow
Junior Member
64 Posts |
Posted - 16/09/2002 : 20:03:49
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Hi Bruce, my comment was about good value still achievable - not just about sea trout but if I had to bet money on it :-
1st choice Loch Ailsh (top of the Oykel) boats £25 /day from Oykel Bridge Hotel or £20 / day + £5 /angler from hotel at Loch Borralan by Ledmore Junction - this was rather dour this year but I did raise 2 salmon to the dap in poor conditions (usually excellent for seatrout particularly to dapping).
2 nd Loch More (laxford system) permits Scourie Hotel £20 /boat - this year I hooked and lost 3 fish comfortably over 2lbs(dapping) but lost them / still ended with 5 seatrout - best 1 1/2 lbs.
3 rd Loch Hope ( more your area of Tongue ie NW ) my week had 22 seatrout - best 2 1/4 lbs but mostly finnock in 1/2 - 3/4 /lb class - all mint fresh.
4 th Loch Awe )top of Inver chain) excellent trout and occasional salmon to the fly.
5 th Loch Gillaroo(nickname - actually Mhaolachcome OS map Assynt 276 193) a 2 mile hill walk with magnificent view on the way back( permits Inchnadamph Hotel) - last year was a magic day - 27 trout > 1/2 lb,2 over 2 lbs 4 @ 1 1/2 lbs 5 @1lb+
6 th= Lochs Assynt( encouragingly I had 2 finnock this year - 1 on dry Klinkhammer other on dap- first seatrout for about 6 years - last year I hooked a 10lb salmon on the dap),Borralan (by the Altnacealgach Hotel),Urigill & Cam permits from several estates or Inchnadamph Hotel. If you fished these Lochs, I would be amazed if they were not a experience of a lifetime.
"Hope" that gives a start Bruce.
Tight Lines Ali Gow
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Sandison
Member
117 Posts |
Posted - 17/09/2002 : 11:37:57
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Ali,
Thanks for that. You are quite right about excellent brown trout fishing, on Veyatie, Urigll and Cama and several hundred other trout waters in north and north west Sutherland.
However, you are being far from accurate in regards to sea-trout and salmon fishing; on Ailsh, Assynt, Awe, More and Hope. And, by the way, you have short-changed me. I asked you to name six “excellent” salmon and sea-trout waters but you have only given me five! Loch Mhaolach-coire (please note spelling) being exclusively a brown trout water.
Loch Ailsh used to be one of the north’s premier sea-trout fisheries but is now a poor shadow of its former self, although, on its day, it can still produce sport. In mentioning the Oykle Bridge Hotel as a place to book a boat, you should also have noted that hotel guests have priority. As such, for instance just now when water levels in the River Oykle are low, the boat is in constant use by hotel guests.
Loch Assynt and Loch Awe have never been noted sea-trout fisheries. I can’t remember when a sea-trout was last taken from Loch Awe, and neither could the late Willie Morrison who had the Inchnadamph Hotel for several decades and fished both Awe and Assynt regularly. To suggest that either Awe or Assynt are excellent sea-trout fisheries is seriously misleading.
One or two salmon are taken from Loch Awe during a season; invariably in October, and invariably by the same angler (who returns the fish). Loch Assynt, prior to the advent of fish farming, could produce reasonable numbers of salmon. Willie’s said the best ever year the hotel had, many years ago, was 90 fish. Today, however, the River Inver, which drains loch Assynt is almost devoid of salmon and few fish reach the loch. This year, however, about 25 grilse/salmon have been taken, probably because of previous fallowing of fish farm cages.
Loch More (and Loch Stack) on the Laxford system have also suffered dreadfully since the 1980’s because of fish farm operations. Indeed, the lochs were closed for four years in the 1990’s to sea-trout fishing because of the lack of fish. They produce very few sea-trout or salmon.
Loch Hope can produce good sport with sea-trout, particularly in July. This is primarily because the River Hope exits into the sea at the extreme north east corner of Loch Eriboll; thus migrating sea-trout largely avoid sea lice infestations from the fish farm in Loch Eriboll (now reopened after a closed period of two years). Approximately 500 sea-trout are taken most seasons, but very few salmon.
You say that the best sea-trout in your basket of five fish weighed 1lb 8oz. The rule on Hope is, as a conservation measure, that all sea-trout under 1lb 8oz must be returned. Fishing on North End Loch Hope costs considerably more than your suggested £20.00; 2002 prices £34.00 per day per boat, plus £16.00 per day for the use of an outboard engine, which is essential. South End Loch Hope, the most productive area of the loch, is preserved for the use of Altnaharra Hotel guests.
Ali, can I say that I don’t want to be pedantic? People have different ideas about what is a fishing experience “of a lifetime”, and I don’t have any sole truth, or, indeed any right to tell other people how they should or should not enjoy their sport.
What does concern me is that you are suggesting that salmon and sea-trout stocks in the north and north west are in good health. Nothing could be further from the truth, believe me, and year on year the position is getting worse.
As anglers we have to face up to this fact, and try to do something to reverse this decline and save our remaining populations of wild salmon and sea-trout from almost certain extinction. I am quite sure that you would be the first to agree. Thanks again for your courtesy.
Bruce Sandison |
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Rob B
Starting Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2002 : 04:03:32
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Bruce, I was over on the Alvie estate at Aviemore at the weekend, after Pike. Talking to some of the anglers on the Spey there and also on Loch Inch, they were totally dispondent about the season so far. Very few fish have been taken, and those that have have not been in the best of condition, probably being fish that have been in the system for a while.
She may have teeth, but please respect her. |
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Allan Liddle
Junior Member
50 Posts |
Posted - 18/09/2002 : 20:15:39
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Rob, I regularly visit Spey Bay and given the right tides and conditions you should witness the number of fish that have not entered the system so far this season. Loch Insch is a little far up the river for prime sport anyway although i've witnessed runs of grilse further up through the Badenoch water and through the Falls of Truim not all that long ago, but yes the Spey has had a disapointing season this year (water conditions?). Still it's a lot better than on the West where there's a growing lack of fish coming back in the first place. Strange how Loch Marie wasn't mentioned by the previous contribiutor as one of the 'excellent' sea trout fisheries in Scotland (what about the decline in Loch Stack for that matter) It's pretty glaring how you can almost directly follow thier decline along with the growth of the salmon farming industry. In fact that's the story for all the upper West Coast. And if you are still in doubt thinking it might be something else around here then have a word with someone up in Orkney and Shetland There's still fish here and it's still very much worth going after them but the decline over the last 10 to 15 years is very alarming. And what about all the other places in the world where the same 'Dirty Trade' is being plied? Oh surprise surprise they've all suffered a sharp decline. Can't all be coincidence can it?
Luckily we've got some of the best brown trout fishing in the world but even this could be in danger form one source or another (anyone ever noticed the growing number of smolt rearing or brood stock cages in fresh water recently?)
Still if we all stand together then there's just a chance that we can help safeguard the future (it's not all doom and gloom you know) and help stop our migratory fish especially from appearing on some future 'Time Team'
Allan Liddle
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Paul King
Junior Member
81 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2002 : 09:29:34
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I have no expertise on Scottish waters but the "feud" between Bruce and Ali is interesting as Bruce tends to compare current fishing with that of the past and of course he is right - it bears no comparison and that is true of most migratory fisheries in the the UK, my beloved Wye for one. Ali on the other hand takes the sport at face value and does not compare it with the past and some of his reported days would indeed be a fair day's fishing in isolation.
In the good old days you could catch a Wye salmon from the opening day (Jan 26th) to the close, almost anywhere on 120 miles of river, on a good May day you could expect four or five fish averaging perhaps 15lbs but those days are gone. Now its not worth fishing before Easter and three fish is a very good day but there are days when you can get three fish and if I'd landed from Mars and caught three nice 10 - 15lb salmon I would be delighted and the fact that this was way below what might have been expected 20 years previously is not relevant to the quality of that day.
Here in Wales we have not had the fish farm problem thank Heaven but our sea trout and salmon fishing took a dive in the mid to late 1980s, it might never be the same again and we get old hands saying that that this pool and that pool would have held a hundred fish in "the old days" - quite so but if I can get five nice seatrout for a night's fishing I am happy and it really doesn't detract from my pleasure that 20 years ago it might have been twenty five.
This doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to get rid of the evils of fish farming and high seas netting, of course we should, and much of the improvement in Wales is due to buying off estuarial netting rights but it is wrong to describe fishing as poor when the comparison is with yesteryear. It has to be in today's context.
Paul King |
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Allan Liddle
Junior Member
50 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2002 : 12:14:35
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With regard to Paul's post, 'tackling' sport on the 'value of today' is fine (the very reason why i have said that it's still very worthwhile fishing for seatrout in Orkney and Shetland let alone thier wonderful brownie sport) but the refrences made to the fishing of the past is a measure of just how far the sport has declined and serves real notice for it's survival tomorrow. You can't catch what's not there. Yes there's still good sport to be had just now but 'good' has replaced, for the most part, 'great'. All we can hope for is for there to be some form of decent migratory fishing left tomorrow, hopefully on the upper levels of 'good'.
Allan Liddle
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Sandison
Member
117 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2002 : 14:57:44
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Dear Paul
Thank you for your comments. I am concerned with the present, not the past. Neither am I having a "fued" with anyone - other than with the people who are currently destroying Scotland's West Highlands and Islands wild salmoid stocks: supine politicians, fish farmers and their civil servant and scientific chums in the Scottish Executive; Scottish Environment Pollution Agency; Scottish UnNatural Heritage, and the angling organisations that are too weak or too scared to really fight for the survival of our wild fish: SANA, S&TA, Scottish District Salmon Fishery Boards, Atlantic Salmon Trust et.al.. If you have a moment, perhaps you could look at the other forum re the decline in sea-trout, or read Rod McGill in FF&FT? Even better, join us on our protest hour (11.00am until 12.00noon Saturday 26th October) when we will hand out posters to the public in front of supermarkets explainig why people should not buy farm salmon. The time for talking is over. If we want to save our wild fish then we must act now, and act together. I value your input and I know that you will share our concern. Best wishes from Scotland.
PS. By the way, the good old days of Scottish salmon and sea-trout fishing were good for very few people. The vast majority, in the "good old days" as you put it, didn't have a hope in hell of setting foot in what was an exclusive preserve of influence and loads of cash - but, then, perhaps that's another story?
Bruce Sandison |
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Sandison
Member
117 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2002 : 15:08:00
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Dear Paul
Thank you for your comments. I am concerned with the present, not the past. Neither am I having a "fued" with anyone - other than with the people who are currently destroying Scotland's West Highlands and Islands wild salmoid stocks: supine politicians, fish farmers and their civil servant and scientific chums in the Scottish Executive; Scottish Environment Pollution Agency; Scottish UnNatural Heritage, and the angling organisations that are too weak or too scared to really fight for the survival of our wild fish: SANA, S&TA, Scottish District Salmon Fishery Boards, Atlantic Salmon Trust et.al.. If you have a moment, perhaps you could look at the other forum re the decline in sea-trout, or read Rod McGill in FF&FT? Even better, join us on our protest hour (11.00am until 12.00noon Saturday 26th October) when we will hand out posters to the public in front of supermarkets explainig why people should not buy farm salmon. The time for talking is over. If we want to save our wild fish then we must act now, and act together. I value your input and I know that you will share our concern. Best wishes from Scotland.
PS. By the way, the good old days of Scottish salmon and sea-trout fishing were good for very few people. The vast majority, in the "good old days" as you put it, didn't have a hope in hell of setting foot in what was an exclusive preserve of influence and loads of cash - but, then, perhaps that's another story?
Bruce Sandison |
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Topic |
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Declined Salmon and Sea Trout fishing
