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wayne
Starting Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 24/11/2007 : 04:34:07
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Now that the date has passed for round one's flies, I would like to get a wee bit of feedback.
What did you guys find better for the hackles indian, chinese or genetic? and why you found it better.
www.nitaforum.co.uk
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Robert Ryan Houston
New Member
39 Posts |
Posted - 26/11/2007 : 10:59:37
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i chose a combo of a half stripped genetic saddle for the body as it was too dense doubled for 5 turns but the thinner stem and uniform fibre length were desirable for a neat body i chose an indian hackle for the head because it tapered and was softer and less dense but unfortunately they have thicker stems, i wasnt 100%happy but i think we never are i didnt like the thick stems but i tried to keep the turns tight and hopefully they wont lose points .
i found that full genetic hackled flies were more like a dry wickhams |
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starlmagwonder
Junior Member
70 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2007 : 12:11:16
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Hello there all,
I have posted a shot (PLEASE CLICK THE HYPERLINKS) of the cape that I have used for my Wickhams in Round 1,its the top one of the 3. I dont know where to grade it with regards to other capes on the market, it is better than Chinese or Indian, but dosn't come up to a true genetic, it is part of a collection I have used for quite some time now, they come from a very good freind of my next door neighbour, who breeds domestic poultry for showing, these are capes from the birds that dont make it to the parade ring.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/starlmagwonder/PB270001-2.jpg
You can see from the various breed individual hackles in the second shot that the barb lentgh and taper isn't to bad and with very little webbiness.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/starlmagwonder/PB270005.jpg
Your comments on where to grade these would be most welcome.
Best regards and good luck with the competition
Steve.
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N C CANDLISH
Junior Member
64 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2007 : 14:21:40
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With regard to the cluttered looking palmered body on the Wingless Wickhams. Per the pattern instructions I bought fifty Partridge YL2A round bend hooks (that was 45 for Struan and 5 for me!) Having put together a couple of practise flies became apparent to me that Magnus must be a wizard at the vise as he is able to wrap five turns of palmer on a standard #12 hook without it looking bushy. When I finally woke up to the fact that the illustrated hook is not a round bend standard shank hook (ie shank = 1.5 times gape) I measured the gape/shank ratio from the photograph, lo and behold the hook used in the tying sequence has a shank that is 2 times gape, I would guess a Kamasan B830.
Here's to the next round,
Nick Candlish |
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Magnus
Administrator
529 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2007 : 15:00:15
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Hi Guys
Nick
The hook I used for the Wickhams was an Ashima - no longer made - it is 1x long. Hook choice was discussed on an earlier thread.
Thing is, hook proportions only becomes an issue if you use the hook to scale the tying and try to mechanically transpose the dimensions of the illustration directly to your chosen hook. If you tie to suit the hook then it works - I hope
Steve
It's impossible to grade a cape by looking at a picture. Grading means considering the smaller hackles and the hook sizes they accommodate, then counting the buggers. They look like useful capes to me. You're getting those from a fancy poultry breeder? As I understand it thats traditionally where most capes came from - mainly bantams?
Robert
Thats exactly the sort of knowledge that come from practice and seeking deeper insight.
The idea behind the flies for the League is to highlight tying skills, but more than anything else they are meant to be achievable, so that relative novices can make a good fly. Hopefully they enjoy the tying and come to think a bit more deeply about what they're doing.
Exactly as you guys are doing. All hooks are not the same, all capes are not the same. If you go looking, there are techniques out there which give you more control - yadda yadda  - you get the idea.
Magnus |
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starlmagwonder
Junior Member
70 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2007 : 16:05:47
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quote:
It's impossible to grade a cape by looking at a picture. Grading means considering the smaller hackles and the hook sizes they accommodate, then counting the buggers
Sorry Iv'e misled you there, by the grading I meant a general quality in relation to the Chinese, Indian & Genetic types, I most probably answered my own question stating they were better than the former types but not as good as the latter
quote:
They look like useful capes to me. You're getting those from a fancy poultry breeder?
Yes, they are from Bantys, He has some wonderfull birds, and a very wide range, blacks, barred in various shades, duns, red game, Greenwell,you name it he probably has it, more than you can shake a stick at, a very handy person to know in times of need |
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N C CANDLISH
Junior Member
64 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2007 : 16:08:27
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Magnus
From your reply it would seem that my understanding of hook shank/gape ratios is wrong,- that wouldn't surprise me. The hook photographed in step one of 'Nowhere to hide' is shown on the page with a gape of 10mm and shank length of 20mm, that to me is shank = 2 times gape. The Partridge YL2A measured from an actual hook has a gape of 5.0mm and a shank of 8.2mm thus giving a gape/shank ratio of .61 as opposed to the illustrated hook having a gape/shank ratio of
.50, clearly a difference in hook proportions, on the assumption that size is governed by gape dimensions has a significant impact on the proportions of the finished fly.
Well, that's the bottle of wine finished, bed seems like the attractive option.
Nick Candlish |
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Magnus
Administrator
529 Posts |
Posted - 27/11/2007 : 22:29:28
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Hi Nick
I said the hook I used was 1x long. That means the shank is one size longer than the "normal" shank/gape proportions for that manufacturer. The scale isn't fixed but if you work with the idea that each maker has a 'normal' or standard shank/gape proportion for their D/E straight shank hooks - then 1x or 2x or 8x etc means the number of hook sizes difference.
So, for that Ashima hook-model, the #12 1x long has a shank the same length as a Ashima #10 standard shank. If I'd tied on an 6x long the shank would've been as long as the shank of an Ashima #1 standard shank. If it was a #12 1x short the shank would be the same length as a #14 standard shank.
Just to complicate things makers (or their marketing bods) invented the wide gape hook. Can you imagine what a #12, 1x long, 1x wide means - yup it's a #10 standard. Or a #12 1x short 1x wide means - yup its a #10 2x short. But if there are rules saying no larger than #12 hooks then that #10 now complies? Btw when they say 2x heavy they mean two wire sizes up or down from standard - they don't mean twice as heavy.
Then, if you really want a kettle of fish, try working out and comparing how curved shank hooks come by their sizes and descriptions - nightmare!
Thing is, few flies depend completely on the hook. Kinkhamers might but the WW certainly doesn't. IMHO a WW can be tied on any wet fly hook.
Let's say I had tied on a hook with different proportions (standard shank, same gape, different bend, heavier wire - B175 for example)I would have used a hackle to suit the way I like a palmered fly to look on that #12 hook. Meaning the tail would be in proportion to the shank and I would've used shorter hackles, the hackle stem would be finer and I would've used a narrower oval tinsel.
Btw until you mentioned it I hadn't noticed I had 5 turns of hackle on there - habit I suppose. I used a low grade Whiting cape, the hackle stems are fine and the barb count is not as high as some of my higher grade capes. I did strip back the hackle, the stem tapers so I was conscious that I used the section towards the tip, not the fat bit
As far as competition flies go - so long as a fly is tied well and the tyer considers proportion for the hook he/she has chosen then there is no problem. I'm looking for well tied flies, I'm much more interested in even turns than in the number of turns. If the rib or hackle angles vary then there is slack - thats not well tied.
Similarly, a fair number of entries had the hackle and rib wound in the same direction, the body hackle held at the tail by one turn of rib. In my opinion thats not a good idea, the rib on this fly is there for security. One trout tooth and those hackles will be loose. So, in those cases, if the hackle was tucked neatly behind the rib turn after turn they scored better than if the hackle wandered about.
Meanwhile - you've given me an idea for a possible competition wrinkle - how about the same pattern on three different hook models and sizes?
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Edited by - Magnus on 28/11/2007 00:15:13 |
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starlmagwonder
Junior Member
70 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2007 : 08:58:55
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Magnus,
Having read the comments from Nick, I know where he is coming from on this, and I would wager a bet (if I was a betting man) that he is not standing alone, after seeing your reply to Nicks post, it is very easy to understand why things are a bit confusing.
When it comes to the many hooks/manufactures and combinations available on the market, would it be at all possible to list the hook required for the compulsary pattern, along with any appropriate alternatives when you do your article, maybe this would go along way to ironing out any grey areas on the hook front that tyers may have.
quote:
Meanwhile - you've given me an idea for a possible competition wrinkle - how about the same pattern on three different hook models and sizes?
That could be a right baffler  
Steve. |
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Magnus
Administrator
529 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2007 : 10:42:00
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Hi Steve
I'm obviously not explaining myself well, my apologies. Please understand, there is no 'best hook' - it's pretty much irrelevant which hook I tied on. Choosing a hook and fitting your fly to that hook is part of the challenge.
Hook sizes and shapes is confusing. If you check the Mustad site http://www.mustad.no/abouthooks/anatomy/anatomy.php they say:
quote:
Hook Measurements
Unfortunately, there is no uniform system of hook measurements. Visual familiarity with the various hook patterns is the only workable gauge for the serious angler. Although attempts have been made to set a standard by measuring the hook in fractions of an inch, the system has never been successful because it merely represents the length of the shank. A hook is really two-dimensional since the gape can vary greatly from one pattern to the next.
Steve - it's the same with the dressing, these are your flies. The idea is to tie them as you want them. If that means using a B175 thats cool. If the tying is skillful and the dressing reflects the proportions of the hook - that's it!
Nick
I should have mentioned - you mentioned a ratio of gape to shank - the shank being 1.5 times the gape. As a rule of thumb that may work for a standard shank, but in fact there is no such ratio. If you have a look here http://veniard.com/search_results.asp?section=29 and compare the B400 and B401 as examples. Both are listed as standard shanks, same gape different shank length.
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Edited by - Magnus on 28/11/2007 11:41:45 |
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starlmagwonder
Junior Member
70 Posts |
 Posted - 28/11/2007 : 11:28:11
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Magnus
Thanks for your comments and the link, personally I didn't have a problem with the choice of hook, as stated in an earlier thread "Hook for Wickhams" I used a Kamasan B400 size 12 as my choice, a hook which bears a close resemblence to the one you used.
I hope your explanations clear things up with others who may be in the dark.
Steve. |
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N C CANDLISH
Junior Member
64 Posts |
Posted - 28/11/2007 : 16:39:42
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Magnus,
I had no idea that this hook business was so abstract and and lacking any convention between different manufactures (prehaps the EU should look into it!)
It seems to me that as far as the competition is concerned it would be easier to set a maximum and minimum overall hook length, measured from the front of eye to furthest extremity of the bend. This would be easy to measure and allow us the tyers more lattitude in hook choice.
Nick Candlish |
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Magnus
Administrator
529 Posts |
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starlmagwonder
Junior Member
70 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2007 : 12:11:38
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Will post my order of merit for the flies now, but will have to get back to you with personal comments on the 3 patterns later, the Wife is awaiting her chauffer to take her shopping  my appologies.
1st Alex Ferguson pattern
2nd Wingless Wickhams (goldhead) pattern
3rd Falkirk Pattern
Will be back Steve |
Edited by - starlmagwonder on 29/11/2007 14:03:53 |
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starlmagwonder
Junior Member
70 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2007 : 14:00:17
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My run down on the 3 patterns,
ALEX FERGUSON PATTERN
Tail - Good length in relation to hook/body
Body – smooth with evenly spaced ribbing
Body Hackle – Nicely wound & tapered
Head Hackle – Again nicely wound & slightly longer than body hackle, carrying the nice taper on
Neat small varnished head.
A well tied fly with about right proportions.
WINGLESS WICKHAMS
Tail – on the short side
Body – smooth with evenly spaced ribbing
Body Hackle – fairly well wound
Head Hackle - fairly well wound but a little on the shortish side
Not to bad a fly in general, but gold bead looks a little large for the size and profile of the hook.
FALKIRK FLY
Tail – to short
Body – To bulky with an un-even ribbing
Body Hackle – wispy and tapered in wrong direction
Head Hackle - ??? non existant
Head – un-tidy, not finished off with varnish
Wouldn’t gain many points as a competition fly, and one to lose 1st cast up a tree.
Steve
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paul clydesdale
Junior Member
57 Posts |
Posted - 29/11/2007 : 15:14:37
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hi forum
i also agree on steves classification of the flies pictured.
1st alex ferguson.
tail.slightly to long and a little untidy.but not to bad.
body.nice flat smoth body.4th and 5th rib to close
hackle.nice body hackle,good shape and form.head hackle has been forced back into the body hackle.
head.over varnished,varnish has bled into head hackle.head does not have a defined shape.
overall comment.this is a good overall looking fly,perfect for fishing a few mistakes for competition.
2nd goldhead.
tail.to short
body.neat enough,has a slight lump in it.
hackle.to many turns of body hackle and maybe slightly to long.looks evenly spread though.
head.bead looks to big.should have finished with white thread.
overall comment.good looking fishing fly !!!
3rd falkirk fly.
"nice hook".
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Round 1 Over
